# Meeting 18 5\\/2\\/1975

May 2, 1975 (Fred 12/29/2009 text edited, organization into paragraph breaks and punctuation not complete) SERENA SAYS

SERENA: You know, once there was a man whose name was Francis. And he lived in a small town, and he was considered quite wealthy by the people of the town. He was tall and thin and he always dressed in the best of clothes. And all his friends were likewise. But Francis, when he was 19, started turning to God a little bit at a time, slowly unfolding as to what he was going to do this incar­nation on earth. So Francis used to give money to the beggars, and it so happened that in the town there were a lot of lepers, a great deal of leprosy they had. And it was customary that the leper would ring a bell and make some kind of horrible noise to warn the people to get out of the leper's way and to know he was coming. And so Francis used to throw money to the lepers, but he was deathly afraid of leprosy. He used to have visions of catching leprosy and of dying in torture and smelling. He was really very, very afraid. One day he was riding on his horse, and he saw this leper ahead of him, and he started to throw the leper some money, but the inner voice within him said, "Francis, not this time." So Francis stopped his horse, and he got down and the leper extended his hand for money, and Francis didn't give him money. He grabbed his hand and kissed the palm of it and then gave him the money. And then he got on his horse and road far away and thought about what he had done. And later he was known as St. Francis of Assisi. But that's how he started. He overcame fear by surrendering himself to God. The Voice said, "No, Francis, don't throw the money this time." So he didn't do it. He had to take just one step towards his fear and surrender, and then everything was all right. Because he knew he had to do something, and he knew what it was. And he found inner peace just by kissing the hand of the leper. Kissing the very thing that he feared most. And so it is with us today. I look around us, and we have a great deal of fear. There is a lot of talk about fear of demons and devils, negative entities. But there can be no demons unless there is a demon within you. No devil unless we allow the devil within us to come forward. When we are nasty to someone, we are a devil. When we purposely misuse some­one, that is the only devil there is. When we have so many fears, fears of not making it to God, fears of having to give God everything that we have and ending up with nothing. All these we are afraid to surrender, even though we know that surrenderence is the only way there is. But if we live our life as Francis did, and see the things that he accomplished in his life, how much he was able to give and serve and do, it is a very interesting story about St. Francis. After that day when he kissed the leper's hand, he totally relin­quished everything, and gave everything to God to serve lepers. In fact, Francis gave everything to a point that he prayed that he would know the sufferings of Jesus. Because once he became one with the lepers, he saw that suffering was all over the world, it was a major part of living existence. And he saw that through suffering God showed Himself. Because when a man suffered, then he turned to God sometimes. But Francis felt that he would give everything he had to God, and later in his life when he prayed to know the sufferings of Jesus, he and this group of men were camping up on the mountain. And Francis went farther up than the rest of them, and his closest companion, his name was Leo, was to bring food at a cer­tain time of the day and this was before a rock where Francis was making his shelter. He was staying way up on top of the mountain. One day Leo took his food and Francis wasn't there. And he was fearful for Francis, thinking that something had happened to him. And even though Francis had said, "Never come up," he did anyway. And he walked on up and he hid behind some bushes, and he saw Francis kneeling. And Francis heard him and he turned around and said, "Leo, go back." And suddenly a blinding light out of heaven, it is said, came down on Francis, and Leo saw that Francis was totally intoxicated with God, because of the transformation. So Leo want back down. During that vision, Francis had prayed that he would know Jesus, and he saw a vision of the Curcifix before him. That was what was in the blinding light. And he looked at the Crucifix and became one with the Lord on it. And then he saw an angel, and when the vision went away, Francis discovered that he had all the marks of the cross, and all the pain that Jesus had felt while hanging there. So after that Francis' health went slowly down and down. He felt this great deal of pain, and he constantly kept away from crowds and hid his hands and the wounds on them, so they wouldn't know what had happened. Only he was able to see what had taken place. It is said that Francis had so much suffering in the last days of his life that they just finally went off and just a small group of men took care of him. And hls health got worse and worse. And one day Leo was rubbing a salve on his chest and by mistake his hand slipped and hit the wound that was on his side. And it is said that Francis was in so much pain that he grabbed Leo's hand and he said tearfully, "God, forgive you." That's how much it hurt. And the pain con­tinued, and as Francis got weaker, everyone got worried. But in the last days, Francis was so much in love with God and so much in love with mankind that in his last days of life he wouldn't even eat. When they would bring him his plate of food, he said, "Take it, and give it to a beggar. Take it and give it to one of my brothers." He wouldn't even eat anything. He wanted everything he had to go to mankind. And that is how we should live also. Sometimes we wonder where we are on the path. How advanced we are. And you see in the story of St. Francis that he never worried about that. So many times we would like to know what plane am I on, what (inaudible), all these things that would tell me some kind of accomplishment I was making. Tell me that all my giving and serving and reading and teaching and loving is paying off by showing me where I am at. But we won't find God until we surrender so completely that you end up saying, "God, I don't know anything but that I love you. I don't know anything but that I want to serve you. And I don't know anything but that I want to become one with you." That's advancement. And when those words come pouring forth from us, we will find God. We should never think about, "Oh, I am never going to make it." or "Where am I at," or if I am more advanced than another man. As long as we worry, as long as we say, "I'll never make it to God," you're putting yourself more into illusion. Because reality says every man makes it back to God. And if we worry, "Where am I at in the spiritual realm?" "Where am I functioning from?" That's putting yourself more into illusion. You are functioning from God. Every man who is God-conscious knows that. We think of colors and we think of rays and we think of planes, but we are functioning for God, through God, for God, through God over and over again. If you ever wonder where you are on the path, just think of yourself as in the hand of God, functioning. If we surrender every-thing to God, even the fact that we are on the path, you reach a point where you say, "God, I have even lost desire of having oneness with you. All I want to do is serve." That is what we should be using this time for here on earth. Today. Loving mankind, serving mankind. We get so caught up in existence, the I, me, my, mine. What am I going to do? "Serena, what can I do for you? What does God want me to do?" And I never say anything, and people get so frustrated. It's because I even want you to surrender that. I just want you to love God and serve God however you can. It is not a matter what you can do for me. You won't do for me if you do for God. And I don't need to worry about what I can do for you, because the greatest thing that I can do for you is love God, serve God, and worship God. So we will just forget all these things about where am I, who am I, and where am I going? And just say I am God, I am going to God, and God is all there is. A gradual unfolding, but sur­render is the main key. To give everything. I was asked today, "How do you know when you are doing the Divine Will?" "How do you know when you are doing what He wants you to do?" It's simple. No man can tell you how to get to God. You have to tell yourself. You have to find it within yourself. No man can tell you you are advanced or not advanced, because there is no advanced or unadvanced. Just some people love more than others, but the others are catching up. So nobody is ahead of anyone. And no one can tell you how to love God or serve your fellowman, you have to find that within yourself, too. And when you find it, hold on to it. But you never burden another man. You just do what you feel you should do. Always. That's surrenderence. To know if you are doing the will of God is when you say every morning and every noon and every night, "God, I love you. Show me the way. Teach me what you would have me know. Open my eyes to what you would have me see. Help me to do everything that you would want me to do." When we say that, have faith. If we say it and really mean it, then don't ever ask how you know if you are doing Divine Will. You have to be. If we open ourselves to God, we shall be sure that God will take us right at that moment - not five minutes later - right at that moment. There is a door within us that is so - a door to a room and this room is so full of God that if we just open the door this much, then all of God just comes pouring out. And then when you open the door you know you are doing Divine Will or maybe not Divine Will like everything you see its purpose and its meaning - that comes later. But just open yourselves and God will come in. The Bhagavad-Gita says that there are two paths, there is a path of knowledge and a path of action. The path of knowledge is the path of contemplation, of learning wisdom, sitting and meditating. The path of action is the path of selfless service to all of mankind. There is only one thing - there are two paths but you have to combine them both. Just one of them won't get us there. So it is a matter of being still and finding God. And then distributing all the God you find to all of mankind. That's combining the two paths and that way it will work. There is an old Arabian proverb that says that there are four types of men. First there is the man who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know, and then there is the man that doesn't know and knows he doesn't know they say this is a man we should teach. And then there is the man who knows, no, that doesn't know and knows he doesn't know. Did I just say that: Well, anyway, that is the one we should awaken. Then there is the man that knows and knows he knows. That is the one we should follow. Very interesting. I have had a couple of people ask me what Dharma is. We sing, "All is Karma, All is Grace, Living Dharma, All is Space." Dharma, to me, is Universal. Law, the laws which govern all things. The mind has a dharma, and its dharma is to become illuminated. The body's dharma is to serve, the heart's dharma is to become one. Buddha taught the Soul's dhanna, and that was to be liberated. And Krishna taught the mind dharma, or illumination. When Krishna came, he saw men in darkness, and he said, "I see a world faced with darkness. I will face it with light." So he was the Lord of Mystical Beauty. Made in the image of the Mother. And he distributed light and beauty upon the world. Buddha came and he saw the world with light and dark, but he saw that people were still caught up in themselves, not seeing the virtue in man, so he taught man to become liberated. Then when Jesus came, He saw a world that had light and dark, and liberation, but now man needed salvation from the things he saw within him. Buddha taught man about all the good things and all the bad things in man, and Jesus came and said, "Now I will tell you where all of that comes from and why it's all here and what we can do about it." And that's where we are now - learning, learning. We have had a big controversy, I have with several people, about demon possession. And I just heard tonight, amazingly enough as to what I was going to speak on, that there is a rumor going around that several people are afraid that this perhaps has something to do with witchcraft. I wish they would come and see. Only a foolish man listens to the stories of other men. You should see every thing on your own. Amazing that people feel that there is demon possession. But the only thing I can see could happen like that is in the world we are faced with two kinds of people, two extreme paths. First mankind must learn to go completely away from God, to say that there is no God before he fully appreciates that there is a God. So we have the men who try to use the negative forces in life, as they call them. And they study what is called witchcraft. And I am talking about black witchcraft, which takes you completely from God into using what is called the powers of the Devil. But strangely enough, there is no Devil. So what are they working from? There cannot be an archenemy so great to God that he can actually put up a fight with Him. That doesn't even sound sensible. The Devil is within ourselves. Thoughts have vibrations. And even as we are sitting here right now, we are all on other planes working with each other, illuminating each other, teaching each other, and perhaps disliking each other. Whatever we feel in our hearts takes place there also. And everything is so close that even as we sit here now we can't help but be within each other, because that is the way God planned it. That is what enables everything to be one. And so if everything is one, and we all are touching each other, then anything that we think has a great affect on everyone else. And so if we think positive thoughts then we help mankind. If we always think negative thoughts, and think about hate, and think, "You're ugly," and think, "You should change yourself," and think, "You're a nasty person or a selfish person," then we burden mankind. So if we seek to live in the light, then how would it be if we could turn to God, and there could be a man who had turned away from God, and that man who turned away from God can torture a man who has turned to God. That wouldn't be right. No one would ever get to God if that was it. It would be an endless circle of one man getting another. All the people who work through pure illusion and call themselves witches, black witches, could torture and bother and cast down all of God's people, and then nobody would ever make it. That can't work. So I did a lot of thinking on this, and from what I see, if I set out to harm you, in other words, I could sit right here, and I could think extreme hate and lust and greed and selfishness, and I could think it really strongly, and I could send it to everybody here, just by thinking, because we are all touching each other. And pretty soon someone would get a headache, and someone would get sick at their stomach and someone would look around and not like the way someone was sitting, and someone would look at someone and think, "Oh, you look nice," and there we would go all because of these thoughts I was having. But if you are sitting here thinking nothing but absolute God and learning and loving and sharing and giving, then no matter what kind of thought I sent to you, you'd keep right on loving God, thinking about God, because you would have transcended this lower realm thing that I was trying to do. The more you try to touch God, the closer to reality you become. And if I am dwelling in illusion, with things like hate and selfishness and greed, which are taking me around the circle the other way, we don't find each other, there is no communication there. You've transcended what I am dwelling in, just by loving God. And so it is. There can't be any demon possession, only if we ourselves are the demons possessing ourselves. Now there is a thing such as obsession. And that is when we drink too much, or when we eat too much or when we smoke too much, or anything we do too much. Then if there is someone who has passed this world, and are in another realm that could not give up these things either, and everythime we get too much to drink in our systems, the other one, the entity that needs a drink, but isn't in this realm anymore and can't drink, will try to experience through us. But yet again, can we call this a negative entity? Isn't it still our brother? Our brother who hasn't quite come and transcended these desires? So the way I see it, there couldn't possibly be anything, there is nothing negative really. There is just illusion which takes us away from God, pure illusion. And when we dwell in illusion, then in illusion there seems to be negative and evil and hate, but when we transcend it, and see that everything is God, we can't help but love everything, and then we have transcended hate and transcended evil and see that there is not such a thing, it is just blindness. We are just holding our own selves back. And even the one that tries to experience through us is still our brother. He is in another realm, but he is one with us. And we have experienced those same desires, and still are experiencing them, and that's why he is able to experience through us. So if we come away from all the negative aspects of earth life, all the devil, and demons, and negative entities, we can just transcend all that right now. We are just a planet full of people, fragments of God that he has placed here. And we have done things wrong, and we have done things right, but what is wrong and what is right? The main thing is not what we did yesterday, not what we will do tomorrow, it is what we are doing today. If we want to love God, then let's love Him today. And surely the love will still be there tomorrow, And all the love we fill ourselves with today we will transcend our yesterdays. And see illusion and reality and see that God is both, and that all the time we spent in darkness, it was just so we would better recognize and understand the light when we came to it. The two sustain each other and complement each other. And we need the darkness and the light so we can understand God. Thank you.

Are there any questions? Is there anything you ever wanted to ask, but never had a guru to ask it? Yes?

QUESTION: Where does your thinking, your speaking all come from? Are you psychic and how do you form these talks?

SERENA: I just, well, I usually go around for a week asking people what they would like for me to talk on. Anything that would really interest anyone, and then I think about it and toss it around in my mind and put it with things that I have seen, and try to mix it with the other people who are on the earth, such as Sri Chinmoy, who has studied a great deal of Hinduism, and my studying inside me has gone more to the studies of Jesus, and·so for a long time I talked mostly about Jesus, but now I am trying to begin to understand the thinking of other men on the earth and unify them so that we here can come to an agreement of what's going on on earth.

QUESTION: Do you consider yourself a disciple as St. Paul and those disciples, or would you consider yourself a Daughter of God as Jesus was a Son of God?

SERENA: I consider myself to be whatever you consider me to be. Anything that you conceive me to be, then no matter what I said, that is all I could be to you. So I am anything from a nothing to an absolute everything, whatever you believe.

QUESTION: I am not so sure of the last answer. It left me up in the air.

SERENA: I meant it to, Yes.

QUESTION: If you do that, you are just an enigma to those who want you to be an enigma. You are an answer to those who want you to be an answer. You haven't come to anything definite. You've mentioned Buddha, Krishna, Christ, and you left out Mahatma Ghandi.

SERENA: I didn't leave him out, just in words, not in thoughts. There are many.

QUESTION: Each have a definite purpose. You seem to float between or amongst them all. I'm not so sure what you are trying to say. You're like a little petal that just floats around bobbing here and there. It's nice but it makes you think that you can't be known.

SERENA: Well, I could tell you exactly who I was, but then I am not so sure you would know me any better then than you did when you wanted to know who I was.

QUESTION: I am just as important as you are in that respect. So the two of us are here. We are looking for the same thing, existence. Our approaches are different, but I come away just still, searching and that you have posed the same problems that you have posed them in a different light, but they are there. the solution is. I am a person, too. the reason for feeling that I am I have posed. But I don't think...

SERENA: Okay. If you ask me a question, then perhaps I'll try to answer it. The question the lady asked was, who was I. And if I laid down a certain thing that I considered myself to be, then I would be limiting myself, then if I limit myself, then I limit you. And the whole idea of why we are here is to break down our limitations. And when we break down our limitations, that is when the barriers and the walls come down, and when those come down, then we can love our brother and serve our brother. And when we truly love and serve our brother, then we are loving and serving God in the best of ways, because it is through our brother that we will understand God.

QUESTION: I am aware of that. We are moving into the area of love. We are talking about the (? mind) attached to our body. And you are trying to move towards me, you're trying to move towards this lady, yet it is an infinite area. And when you are doing this I think you are just posing a problem, I don't think you are answering anything.

SERENA: Yes, but if I sit here, and start to tell you who I am, you probably wouldn't believe me.

QUESTION: And if I told you who I am would you believe me?

SERENA: I see who you are.

QUESTION: And I see who you are.

SERENA: No, or you would not ask me. If you truly saw me as I am, then you would probably sit there speechless.

QUESTION: But you can see me where I am. And you know me.

SERENA: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: And yet you say I don't know you. Why?

SERENA: Because I recognize that you and I are the same, but I see that you do not recognize this with me. And if I sat here and said that I consider myself as a disciple, I can't say that. Because I was once a disciple, but I transcended that. And anything that I would tell you that I am, I have transcended. And I can't sit here and tell you I am God, because we know, well, I don't know if you would know what I meant or not.

(tape change)

...Sir, I am a humble person. Sir, I am full of humility. Sir, I am this, I am that.

QUESTION: Could you repeat to me that you're a master, you're everything else.

SERENA: I said that I am these to many people, yet again it is not I who looked at them and said, "I am your master." It is they who looked at me and said, "You are my Master." And I said, "So be it." If you open your heart, if you wish me to be your Master, I am equipped to be Master. If you open your heart to learn from me, then I am equipped to be teacher. If you open your heart to me to be your friend, then I shall be your best friend. If you open your heart, but you don't know me, so be it, you will not know me. But never did I come and say, I am this, and this is what I must be to you, because that is taking away your right to know God, your right to do what you feel you should do. My story is that I journeyed and I completed my journey, and when I completed it, I became it. I found my oneness, I represent the oneness that all men can have, that all men are going to, and so after I found my oneness, I lost any identity. In other words I don't say, I am Serena a disciple, or I am Serena a teacher. I just say that my name is Serena Divine Beloved, and anything that you want to read into that, so be it. Because it must be this way. If I limit myself to being a teacher, for many I go beyond a teacher. But for some I am only a friend. They consider me not a teacher at all. For many here in town, I am a threat. For many I am an absolute fraud. Some consider me to be the greatest thing that has ever happened in 2000 years. Some say the greatest thing that has happened in their life. And some say it is just another passing person. So with all of these things which have happened to me, would I dare to say that part of them are wrong and part of them are right? Can I tell a man who doesn't believe in me that he is all wrong and that he's blind because he can't see who I am? Not at all. I have to say, "You don't see me. Well, for you I am nothing."

QUESTION: I can see that, but you say you can see me. And yet when I look at you, you deny that I see you the way you are. Why do you deny that I can see you, but you can see me totally?

SERENA: I think you see me as much as you can.

QUESTION: (inaudible) ...in no better or no less light. Am I correct?

SERENA: Okay. Very well.

QUESTION: That's all.

SERENA: Thank you. Yes.

QUESTION: I think that probably (inaudible) an inner answer. Things that seem important to us, if we try to seek an outer answer...

SERENA: You don't get one. Not a very good one. It's not lasting.

QUESTION: (inaudible)

QUESTION: (from a child) I love God.

SERENA: I know you do. She said she loved God. I believe that. I do too.

QUESTION: May I ask another question? The Bible and all its teachings - do you consider that the word of God or man's interpretation of the history of his people.

SERENA: I think they have to be one and the same. Everything that Jesus ever told a man as we can plainly see many people took it many different ways. And it has been this way with all the teachers and it is this way with just men talking to men. And so I think the Bible is composed of God's word, because it was inspired young men who wrote it, and inspiration comes through God, and when we become inspired then perhaps that is God talking to us, so that is God's thoughts which come through us. And when we write them down, it becomes God's words. It is all in how we take them. We can ask too much of the men who wrote the Bible, and then the Bible won't be good for us. But we can understand that they were inspired men, and understand the limits of a man, and thus we gain very much from the Bible, very much indeed.

QUESTION: Are there things you can add to Jesus' teachings that are not written?

SERENA: No, I don't think so, never. Never even would I try. I have said and I will say it again tonight, I could never say anything that you have not already . heard or thought or said or have accomplished, because there is nothing new. The teaching has been the same on earth forever. In fact sometimes I think too much has been said already. We had Jesus come and he gave his life for us, and so many times we think, "No, not for us. You know, that was back then when the other people took his life." He died for us here. But in truth he died for us because he died because of us, therefore he died for us. Because he died for our blindness. He died because we didn't understand. He died because he was willing and we were not. Because he wanted to serve and we didn't. He wanted the light and we liked the darkness. So we got rid of him. And then when he left, we all turned around and we go, "Wait a minute. I think there was something to the old boy." But we couldn't get him back right then. So now we just have to study about him. But I don't thing anyone could ever add anything that he didn't say. He said it all, a thousand times over, and what he didn't say, he did. That's what I think.

QUESTION: Are you saying that He is It. Or do you place Buddha and the rest of them in the same category. For instance the Bible says (inaudible)...

SERENA: No, I don't see it that way. I see that as a limitation of God also.

QUESTION: A limitation of God? There is no limitation of God.

SERENA: Through man's eyes there is. Therefore I would not teach this. When you are going to teach of God, you have to understand that you are dealing with men when you teach. I include all. The race of men to me is both male and female. I don't see that we even have to limit it so much as to say females have your rights and males have your rights. It should be automatic that all men should be equal. All women should be as equal as men - all should be one. I don't put them all in the same category, yet never would I put one of them above or below another. I don't say all the world is 95% non-Christian and 5% Christian. What is Christian? What is non-Christian? We are all people. We are all earthlings. We are all fragments of God. We are all the whole, and I see that, and I won't limit God through man' s eyes by saying that this many people believe in Buddha and this many people don' t. That's not important. The main thing is love God today. And if we do that. If you're loving God you have to be loving Krishna and if you love God you are loving Buddha, and if you are loving Jesus you will remember that Jesus, "I and the Father are one." And what he said one of his last days on earth,"When you see me, you have seen the Father." So when we love God, we love Jesus. We don't have to say Jesus Christ the Saviour. One man gave a very nice contribution. He said, "Why don't we say Divine Love or just Love. We could leave out the Christ. All we would have to say is Love. Because that's what the Christ is. And that's what Jesus gave us." For the first time on earth when Jesus was here, he totally poured out Divine Love upon this planet. So he was Divine Love manifest. So how can I put that and say that He is different from Buddha. When Buddha came he gave men all that he had. He gave and gave and gave. And how could I put Buddha above Krishna? When Krishna came and gave man every thing he had. They gave their lives to God and to mankind. Jesus is my Master, but if Jesus is one with God and God is one with Jesus, and God is everything God must also be Krishna and Buddha, so therefore I would be limiting. To limit mankind by saying that there is only one way, then I am limiting God. For why would God prepare an earth that he could well foresee what it would be, and why would he put half of the world knowing how to get to God and half of the men not knowing and all be lost on the wrong way? That's impossible. There is one way, and that's when you never say that there is only one way. That is the one way.

QUESTION: It dawned on me just the other morning we should be like the orb we call the sun that casts its light out in all directions. And we stand here and we cast a long shadow, but as we travel towards the sun, out path, like with God, the closer we get, the shorter our shadow becomes. And when we reach the sun, we cast no more shadow at all, and we look back and realize that we never had a shadow at all.

SERENA: And when we are there casting the shadow, sometimes foolish men try to say, "If that sun would go away, I wouldn't have a shadow." But the sun says, "Wait a minute. If you go away, you won't have a shadow." Man casts his own shadow. So we put ourselves in the illusion.

QUESTION: Christianity has the mission to go out into all the world and to teach Christianity. If that be so, where do 'Buddha and Krishna fit in with the concepts that everyone should be Christian?

SERENA: What is the definition of a Christian?

QUESTION Of a Christian? A follower of Christ, as the son of God.

SERENA: And Jesus said, "The Father and I are one and nothing can separate us." That is your connection. To go out and to try to tell a man who love Buddha. You see we have people in the world that are believing in all kinds of different things and if you go in there and you say, "Okay, all you Buddhists, take off your monks' robes and follow me because I am going to take you to Jesus Christ." You don't take them to Jesus Christ. They don't understand Jesus by what you are doing. They go, "Well, if you treat me like that, they I don't want to hear about your Jesus Christ. Not if that's what he is like. If what you are doing to me now is showing me the love of Jesus, then I don't want it." I've seen that happen.

QUESTION: Well, I couldn't agree more. I don't happen to be a particular believer in missions. I feel that they, Buddha and Allah and all of the Gods are basically the one God. On the other hand, the New Testament and Paul teaches that we as Christians should go out into the world and teach Christianity, and say that Buddhism and Mohammedism and all of these other segments of belief are wrong. Why is this in the New Testament if it is not so?

SERENA: Well, many of the books in the Bible which were handed down for many years, many of them got distorted and changed to better keep mankind together in the churches. And many scholars have studied this and found it to be very true, that many of the things that are in the Bible were changed throughout the years. Changed so that man could better have power over mankind. You see you have quite a bit of power if you gather a group of people like this together, and if I could convince you all that there was one way and we closed everything in and put it in nice little segments and said that this is the basis of our beliefs, and we could say that now this is exactly what Jesus would want us to do and we would all be convinced and then we would go out and try to give it to mankind and they wouldn't understand. So when mankind doesn't understand, sometimes he rebels. And so everyone would rebel against what we were saying. But if you can get eighteen segments, broaden it just enough. Not too tight and not too lenient, the priests thought to put everything together and limit God through mankind's eyes, then they would have more control over mankind. Give mankind not enough freedom to think totally on his own, and not make it too tight so that he will rebel, just put it tight enough so that they will be bound to the church. And this is what happened. And when I speak of church, I don't just mean the churches in town. I mean different organizations that tried doing the same thing to gain man's devotion and money through changing a few Bible verses to make it their way.

QUESTION: Then you sort of agree on organized religion becoming part of the state, and it has nothing to do with religion per se?

SERENA: Sometimes it does. Many times I have attended meetings that were to be held in the name of God, and somehow God gets lost in between donating the monthly money and the weekly money, and there is not quite enough God in the ceremony. It is more as somehow everyone manages to get around the word "God". You pay your money for this and you pay your money for that, and you pray for your money to come in so that you can pay the money to the church, and it is an endless circle. And someone said as I was thinking today, that I was given a pamphlet from a church that was talking about mankind should give 10% of what they make to God. It says that in the Bible, it's what the pamphlet said. I thought very well. How nice would it be if all of us in this room gathered 10% of what our income was, put it together, and donated it to an orphanage. Wouldn't we be serving God? Not building big churches. The bigger the churches get, the more people you have to put in them. Some day we are going to need the places for houses. But what if we did really sincerely give 10% of what we made to God. There sure are a lot of people who need it. Right now in this town there are people out of work, and people hungry. We would really be working for God if we did that. And so we've been thinking about money and giving it to God. I'd like to share with you tonight an idea we have that we plan to do. We are thinking of opening a child care center in Hendersonville. We are very excited about it, because so many people seem to have children who could use a nice place to stay in the day, and many places that they are running in Hendersonville are run very well, most of them, but they are quite expensive, and there are quite a few children there, because the mothers sometimes need to work, and just need to have the children in a nice place. So our plans are opening a child care center for the town of Hendersonville, for the people of Hendersonville and our ideas run on, and we hope that everyone can help us with these ideas and help us reach people that might need children to stay somewhere. Our fees that we would charge people would be based on what you think you can afford - what it would be worth to you. If you could pay a small amount or if you could pay nothing. And if you could pay a large amount or just a nice sum. Whatever you would feel. And we are just pretty well going to take everyone's word that they are really doing what they feel they should do. But these are our plans for Hendersonville. So if you would please, anyone who knows anything about people who would be interested in keeping children somewhere. You can drop the word around town, so that we can get enough children that would be interested to make this worthwhile

QUESTION: Let me speak of this. I am a little familiar with it as I am the chairman of the Henderson County Child Development Council. You're going to be running into the establishment. If you have 15 children or under yougo to. Rule A. If you have 15 children or over you have Rule B. Both controlled by the state. So it not going to be that easy.

SERENA:We haven't done anything that has been easy yet.

QUESTION: There are organizations now that are ready to take them, Headstart, child care centers. They could use more children, and I don't see why we have to proliferate...

SERENA: Is this for children about 2 or so?

QUESITON: Two to five. There are people begging, they want more children. There is a mixture of black and white. They need them, and I don't see why we have to do this with another organization...

SERENA: Well, we already have an organization, we just thought we would do some­thing with it.

QUESTION: (inaudible) the Catholics, the Protestants, the Baptists, the Congrega­tionalists - let's think of the children.

SERENA: Right. That's what we were doing. You see, right here in this roomt and some that aren't present, we have mothers who have children, say 1-1/2, 2, 2-1/2, or 3, that don't have anywhere that they can really put their children. Now Pumpkin Shell in Hendersonville is nice, but they are very crowded right now from what I under­stand. They have remodelled and everything. I don't know, but.

QUESTION: They are out for money. I'm talking about child day-care centers, Head start programs. SERENA: Well, if we had known about this, but you see we didn't and we have so many people right in our own group that were needing this

QUESTION: You should have known about this. The Lord should have told you about this.

SERENA: He did. You know what God said to me? He said, "Serena, I want you to start a day care program."

QUESTION: And God said to me, "Joe, come over here and tell them about the child day care program."

SERENA: And God says to me, "Thank you, Sir, but we are still going to have our own." I have to do it my way until it goes wrong.

QUESTION: Why?

SERENA: It's just that my Father never sends long letters.

QUESTION: I disagree. Again, you are competing. There are existing organizations.

SERENA: No, we are not competing. We were just thinking that there are people right here in this room that need places for their children.

QUESTION: And there are places to put them, and they are adequate.

SERENA: Well, we'll have one adequate,too. And if we don't keep anyone's children but the children of the people right here in this room, then it will be a worth­while effort, because we will know that those children will get the best of care and a good place to stay and good food to eat at a price that these people can afford. And if we don't go anywhere other than this room right here, it will still be that way.

QUESTION: The best of care, money they can afford - these criteria you are setting up are arbitrary and I think that...

SERENA: What are we here for tonight?

QUESTION: The children.

SERENA: No, I think we have gotten off the subject somehow. But anyway, we are going to open up a child care program, and if you would be interested, we would love to have your children. I can't change my mind when it is already in the process. We are not competing. It is just something that we felt led to do, because we do have people, quite a few, that have been asking us, "Where can I keep my child?" And we have quite a few young people starting out. They have been married a few years and some that aren't married yet, that have things like this to think about, and we would sure like to help them out. So we will do what we can. And if it starts being something that is so organized that we begin to compete... Funny you should say we were competing with the Catholics and the Protestants because my idea today - I told Fred Brown, I said, "Now what we are going to do is, I am going to go down and talk to Father Farr and Father Viola, and I am going to see if they don't know of some children that might need a good place to stay. I wasn't going to compete - I thought they would probably help.

QUESTION: Sir, what is your title?

QUESTION: I am Chairman of the Henderson County Child Care Program.

QUESTION: I often wonder when something like this happens. That is very amazing that you should think of a child day care center and that evening the Chairman of the Henderson County Council should come. I wonder if that might God sent, and His message to you be that perhaps you have gotten an answer that there are places available for the children.

SERENA: Well, we had two ideas with this place that we had in mind. The first was a child care program to put in this building and the other was a place for older people to stay that would give them good homes. And the place is suited for both, and it seemed that the place would have more work to be done on it to handle older people than it would if we started with children - the child program. And so to get started we were going to start this child program.

QUESTION: We are also working on that.

SERENA: Well, we are right with you.

QUESTION: The Council on Aging, the older people, couple them with the younger kids - put them side by side - and we would use many of the senior citizens to help take care of the children.

SERENA: Well, that's what we said. That's amazing. Right. That's what we said, so that's what we were going to start to do.

QUESTION: We are already doing that.

SERENA: One point for the establishment.

QUESTION: I'm anti-establishment, but I work within the establishment.

SERENA: So do we. Well, undoubtedly we are going to get the children and the old people taken care of. I think that is the main thing.

QUESTION: Children who are retarded or children who have like cerebral palsy is this something that their souls are working on? What is the best thing we can do? Hey, you just told me. But sometimes I feel so helpless when I am around a child like that, and I don't know how to reach them to let them know that we love them.

SERENA: Well, if you love them inside, they are going to feel it. Children are amazing. They feel things so quickly from people. That's what led our ideas into feeling that the children we knew of who needed a place to stay, needed the kind of surroundings that would help them get off to a good start in life, because it is so important that we shape them in their earliest stages to get them ready for the world at a later state. And just by loving them inside, you don't have to say anything, but feel it, and they come right to you. And when you don t love them and you don't want to be bothered, you don't have to say anything, they feel that, too. So silence is beautiful sometimes.

QUESTION: Children who are mentally retarded. I thought that they had something to work out and this is the avenue they chose to work out their problem, and I believed that for so many years, and then I asked Mr. Gore a couple of weeks ago if this was true, and he said, "Definitely not. Every child wants to come into this world beautiful and loved, and it is simply man's inhumanity to man." Mental retardation may be caused by pills or something while the mother is carrying the child...And now I don't know which is correct. That's why I'm asking you.

SERENA: Yes, I couldn't tell you. I can't disagree with Mr. Gore, but my thinking doesn't go along that line. It's true we want to be beautiful and perfect in the universe, and that's what we are striving for, but we can't be that until we have learned our lessons well. And when we have not, then it is my belief, I see that we will have to experience not being perfect to become perfect.

QUESTION: I have a crooked toe because I have a crooked understanding. You know.

SERENA: I don't know. That has been my belief. That is the way I see things. I don't know. It's true that every child would want to enter in perfect, because that is a universal pattern that all things follow. We are constantly striving to be perfected, because perfected means one with Christ, and Christ means one with God. So constantly we are seeking to be, but it couldn't be totally that way, because maybe in some cases it would be, but yet we know that we have enough control on the consciousness of the planet, in other words, we are what our offspring will also be. And I have had so many people get upset with me to say that you are the controller of your child's purity. It is because if we ourselves seek to become pure, and seek to love God, then when we have a child and it comes into the world and it doesn't look pure, and we say what is this. That is not anything wrong. That's good. You have been graced with an imperfect child that it might grow up in pure surroundings to find its perfectness. And I don't see how the parents could be able to punish a soul coming in. That would take us off of the rule of karma which everything has to go on. We said that the soul is like a train, and all the scenery around the train is the experiences, and the track is the karma that keeps us going in the right direction so we will get to our destination. And so that is my belief. I don't know.

QUESTION: Well, you are no longer bound to karma once we realize that oneness with God.

SERENA: Right. Because we realize our oneness with God when our karmic impres­sions upon us are exhausted enough to liberate us. And when we become liberated then we know God. So then we are perfect.

QUESTION: Would you explain what the soul is?

SERENA: Yes. In our seeking to know ourselves and to know God, we take what is called a semi-false individuality, to put a nice long word there. And this semi-false individuality tells us that we are a soul and we are separate from God and making our way to God. But in truth we are not souls. That is just in our consciousness. In truth we are one with God eternally. And we are just beginning to unfold to realize that. So soul is a stage of development, just like being on earth is a stage of development. Something that we feel is real right now because we feel that - you see, so many of us have the beliefs - "I am a soul, and you are a soul, and we are one somewhere up there, and we are seeking to find our oneness." But in truth, there is no such thing as soul. It is just all a part of our consciousness that tells us it is. Because we are really all in the whole. We are the whole now. Because is like an ocean, and if we try to separate the drops of water to individualize them all as souls - that would be impossible. When a drop of water is put into the ocean, it becomes the ocean in its entireity. And that is how all beings are in God. But we seemingly separate ourselves so we can better find our way. It is a part of our growth, our development, a process. You see, to believe that we are souls, separate from God, gives us a path to lead us to God. But then we transcend being a soul and we realize that we have never been separated, it was only in our own consciousness. It is because we have to seek false identity before we can know our true identity. And when we find our true identity, we find that that is God. And so we transcend being a soul, being an entity. We just find ourselves with the whole.

QUESTION: What happens to the body if I did that right now? If I knew my oneness right now, would I no longer need the body?

SERENA: That would depend on what it is that you had chosen to do. Most people who realize God and find their oneness in entirety, realize God-consciousness, shed their body almost immediately, and some keep their bodies as long as three days. And then we have what are called (majubs?\*) by many. And these (majubs?) are people who realize God totally and remain in their body, but they are so God intoxicated, as you can call it, so at one with everything, that someone has to care for them and feed them because they are not able to function. And yet we have those on occasion who find their oneness with God and function quite freely after a period of adjustment. So there would be no set pattern to that either. It would be what you had chosen to do. Any more questions?

* Sufi term=masts, sanskrit=mattah (Fred 2009)

QUESTION: Lots of them.

SERENA: Go ahead. Keep going. I'll answer as long as I can.

QUEST!ON: Since we are such creatures of habit, could you say something about the position of habit in our lives?

SERENA: Creatures of habit. That's the first time I've ever heard that. Very interesting. Yes, it's true. It's usually because we bind ourselves to ourselves. I call it getting all excited about just existence in general. Getting bound to existence causes habit. Habit is just a repetition, am I right. Habit is just something you do continuously and can't seem to come out of your own pattern. That is when we limit ourselves. That is what would make you a creature of habit I think. If anyone can add anything to that I'll be glad for you to.

QUESTION: It might be called taking the easy way out.

SERENA: Binding ourselves into a little room about so big and functioning from there. Not ever having to look outside to see what anybody else was doing. The easy way out. For a while.

QUESTION: Would you explain the astral world to me?

SERENA: The astral realm is the realm that is closest as we sit right here. We have the physical and then the astral and then the mental realm. And the astral realm is that realm where our astral bodies stay. And it is a realm that is very similar to this one, but in this realm it is that any thing we think manifests itself before us. And so it is that many people feel that they have found heaven when they reach the astral planes, because when you enter the astral plane, enter we could say when your consciousness opens to your existence on the astral plane, you see whatever it is you wish to see. If you wish to see heaven, it will be there before you. If you punish yourself and think you have. fallen into hell, then that is where you will be also. Because it is purely by what we create there.

QUESTION: How can I get there?

SERENA: You are there now. All your bodies - your astral body is within you, and it can't be in this realm, it must be in the astral realm, which is inside this realm. We are like circles within circles. Everything interrelate and interpenetrates. And every realm is touching every other. And so it is that your astral body is on the astral realm because for you an astral realm could not exist unless you had an astral body. And vice versa. The two need each other.

QUESTION: It's not something that I manufacture, it's just hell.

SERENA: That's just the way it is.

QUESTION: Some Christian positions teach original sin. Is there original sin, and if there is, why would God hold us apart? If God is all this justice, goodness, and wisdom, why would he impose original sin on man.

SERENA: That's the same thing I asked about two weeks ago. That's what I talked on. I don't see that he did. I see that - well, I have told the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden and this is the way I thought about it. I wanted an answer to this and I contemplated on it and I found it - my answer. And that was that there was Adam and Eve in the Garden and God said, "Don't eat of that tree." And they said, "Why, what will happen?" "Well, you'll get wise." "Well, what's wise?" "Well, just believe me. If you eat of that tree, you won't have me anymore." "But what's it like not to have you anymore." Pure innocence because they didn't know. And it wasn't until they disobeyed that they learned the truth of obeying. And the truth of disobeying. I don't think that we had an original sin. I think that every man in the beginning has seven sins, as it is called. Anger, lust, greed, gluttony - the seven sins...

QUESTION: We're born with them?

SERENA: In the beginning the soul has to experience all these sins as they are called or imperfections because the seven imperfections mold us into perfection. But as far as just an original sin that every man gets faced with, I don't see that that would be other than what they might mean by original sin would be a karma pattern, which we would agree to accept. And this karma pattern would mean that we would be so loving God that we would agree to leave God so that we would know God - seemingly leave him, because in truth we never leave him. But that's the only original sin I can see. The word sin in this country is used so often. People become proud of it, and in truth I can't see that sin really exists, because sin is imperfection, and imperfection means lack of Christ or lack of Jesus, and lack of Christ means lack of God, and when a man doesn't have God that's not even real. So sin is just all an imaginary thing that we think we are enjoying. In truth, there is no love but the love a man has for God, no truth but the truth a man can find in God, and no peace but that which lies within God. Nothing can last for us but God. All else is just something we are trying to hold on to that really doesn't exist.

QUESTION: Do you say that Christ is the last of the prophets to come down to give us divine wisdom and God or is he one of the most profound (inaudible) no significance (inaudible) in the Roman Church, or Mary Baker Eddy, or the Christian Science Church, or perhaps you, as a teacher of God.

SERENA: I think there have been many.

QUESTION: If there are many, how do we determine who are the phonies and who are the correct ones.

SERENA: You have to go by what you feel. If a man is following Jesus, then we should never tell him that he should follow Buddha, but we should persuade that man, urge him with our own experience to open himself to that fact of why other people would be worshipping someone else. And if we go to a man who worships Buddha, we should not tell him to leave Buddha and follow Jesus Christ. We should help him open his mind that he might understand why people would worship Jesus Christ. And this is the way it goes. We can only conceive God to be what we can conceive him to be. No matter what anyone says. I mean, we look at the world. Jesus came and he said, "I am the Son of God, the Saviour that you have waited on. Through me you can get to the Father." And everybody goes, "Who do you think you are? What do you think you are doing? I can't follow you, you are just a man from Nazareth. How do I know you are real?" And when we look at how they treated jesus, and they learned from it, and that's why Jesus said, "Those of you who see me go shall see me return." Because Jesus knew that all the people that turned from him were only learning. But they could only conceive as much as they wanted to and as much as they could within them. Which is as much as they want to.

QUESTION: But then you can reach God without Jesus.

SERENA: No. I think eventually you will run in to him. You have to.

QUESTION: But only 5% of the people in this world are Christians and somehow this is just a kind of trend. Why can't you reach Him through the Inca religion.

SERENA: You can. Right. That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm saying that you will find Jesus, but He might not be called Jesus Christ. He might just be called Love. And I think you can reach God through Love. And when you find Love you find Jesus.

QUESTION: But can you just find Jesus and say you have reached God?

SERENA: You sure can. That's what I say every week.

QUESTION: Then why do you want to bring Jesus into it? It is because of what will happen to philosophies in the Western cultures if you do? It is a question of poaching here.

SERENA: No. Not at all. I mention Jesus because He happens to be very strongly on my mind right now, and I felt like I should. And if I disobey my voice for you then I am not helping you a bit. So I am doing what I feel I should do, saying what I feel I should say, looking at you like I feel I should look at you as long as I feel I should look at you. And when I feel I should turn away, I do. And if I feel I should turn away, but I keep my eyes on you, then I am disobeying my voice. No. I cannot do anything for you unless I do that which I feel I should. So I have to speak what I feel I should speak. And I just feel like speaking about Him.

QUESTION: This is the hangup of the church - the man Jesus. The man Jesus died. The man Jesus was Love. He became Love. And that's what He is. There is no more Jesus. God sent love in the person of Jesus Christ, and the man Jesus is dead and Love is alive.

SERENA: Sir, we enjoy having you here. I really do.

(Inaudible exchange)

SERENA: I believe you are right.

QUESTION: One more point. If we believe that our old self may go away as we reach God. We are all here for this as you have stated (tape change)

We have to come back to the fact that we are living together. We have to have some sort of life we can use. Even animals do that. A wolf pack... birds have a pecking order. (inaudible) We have a family established. And so on down the line. We all have to, I use the word: "transcend", till it reaches... but it has to reach everybody (inaudible) This is the way it is going to be. How do we work that in to a religious aspect?

SERENA: If man will turn to God, truly turn to God, then that's the only way we will ever have order in the country or order in the city or even order in this room. Because that's the only way we will ever find anything. We have a lot of people who say they have turned to God, but they don't really. They know God's words and they repeat them, but they don't live them.

QUESTION: Everyone who says he has God's words sets up the order. And this is where the problem comes in. Are you setting up the order under the banner of Christ or under the banner of God or under the banner of Buddha?

SERENA: Well, we are reaching a point, we are slowly reaching a point, where every man will become a master of himself. Yes, we will. It will take awhile. If you turn to God, and you seek to love everyone and serve everyone in the highest and purest way, in God's name.

QUESTION: (inaudible)

SERENA: Is that not serving? We say love everyone and serve everyone. The greatest way to serve is to grow food and feed people. That's better than going around preaching to people to everyone, because most people don't want to hear it. In fact I'm thinking of putting in a garden this year, and trying that.

QUESTION: It comes back to the question he asked awhile ago about whether teachers will continue to come. Won't they continue to come until every soul becomes one?

SERENA: Right. Yes.

QUESTION: Until I become one? Until everybody - as long as there is one soul left that has not returned to God...

SERENA: Then God will keep manifesting himself on earth. Yes. We keep a constant flow upon earth to guide mankind, to show mankind. Constantly God manifests himself before man. Because man cannot understand God until he understands man. So God descends in human form upon the earth that man might understand what God is like within man. And when we see a Master; a God-man, and we transcend the physical man, and we see that God within him functioning, talking, breathing, then we begin to understand the God in every man. And so that is why God comes and continually he will come until all of mankind knows that God is on the earth.

QUESTION: Is that an answer to getting (inaudible) as mentioned in the Bible? Or angels who are sent..

SERENA: Right. You never know who you are speaking to they say. Watch out. You might be talking to an angel.

QUESTION: Do you believe in angels?

SERENA: I believe in everything to a degree. Yes, I believe in angels.

QUESTION: The Devil too?

SERENA: No, I don't believe in a Devil. I said that. I don't. Not at all.

QUESTION: How can you believe in angels without the Devil? Where is the difference? God created the angels and he created the evil, the Devil.

SERENA: No. I don't know how to take you sometimes. But I believe that the angel that I see and believe in is within mankind. And the reason that I don't believe in a Devil is because when I look at mankind, I see angels. They may think they are devils sometimes, but that is illusion. And they will transcend that.

QUESTION: Give me your definition of an angel.

SERENA: I have two definitions, actually. The angel kingdom or the deva kingdom, as it is called, is a realm very similar to this one in which the inhabitants of that realm, just like we, come to earth. They live in another realm, and they are called devas, or the angel kingdom. And they function in helping mankind all the time, constantly serving, loving, and giving to mankind. So that would be an angel. Another race of beings. And then we could say that there are angels in man.

QUESTION: How far away is that realm?

SERENA: Right here. About as far as you can look, if you look as close as you can.

QUESTION: This continuous circle from God outward -it's all just right around us individuals?

SERENA: Right. We are universes upon universes within ourselves. Right here now. That's why anything you will ever want to know you have to go inside yourself for it. If you ask, sincerely, a question of God, then God will give you an answer through a dream, through a prayer, through some kind of happening. And the more we start turning inward, the better things will go for us.

QUESTION: Then this circle doesn't start here and go outward? From the center it comes out into the final outer circle.

SERENA: No, in truth, the circle doesn't go out at all. In truth, it is just one big circle. And in truth, you even transcend there being a circle and you just are. You see, because we feel that we are separated from God, because we fragment our­selves and say, "I am in this physical body and you are in that one. So the circle is all in here." What happens to all this space out here? How can there be one circle in me and another in you? So the circle doesn't start here and go out or stop here or anything. We just are in the circle now. All of us here are like cells in God's body. The story of God beginning to know himself can be told very fascinatingly by the fact that God was a tall, tall man - so tall that he couldn't see his feet. And He didn't know what they were like. He didn't even know if He had feet. So He set about to explore himself and that's what we are doing. Looking at God's feet, which is a nice thought.

QUESTION: I don't want to be facetious, but I see that statue behind you

SERENA: You see that picture up there? I know who you are talking about.

QUESTION: Is that Christ?

SERENA: This is Buddha, Gautamma Siddhartha.

QUESTION: If you are so enamored with Christ then why do you put Buddha there and why do you put Christ there.

SERENA: Well, I put Jesus on the wall..He hung and Buddha sat, so that was a lot easier for me than to try to stand Christ here and hang Buddha up there.

QUESTION: Christ was the force of Divine Love (inaudible) and the Buddha manifested the same energy of Divine Love. Therefore the two are actually one, because both are an emanation of divinity or of God. So therefore there is no difference between Christ and between Buddha and between Krishna and between any of them. They all came from the same source.

QUESTION: I agree. That's what I was hoping she would say, but she put Christ above Buddha.

QUESTION: No, she did not.

SERENA: He wouldn't stand up really, Sir. No.

QUESTION: Do you teach meditation techniques?

SERENA: Yes, occasionally. When I find interested people I love to.

Shall we close with prayer?

God, which is within us and without us, which is forever circling us, flowing in and around us and through us. The God which is Everything and the Absolute Nothing, eternal and infinite, moving yet immovable, which speaks through us and we do not recognize Your voice, which smiles through us and sometimes we see Your face, help us to better know what You would have us to do, say what You would have us to say. Help us to become that which You long for us to be. In your ever blessed Name, and in the name of all Masters past, present, and future, Amen. May we all live in Thee.

Thank you.
